Question: Please explain what Osho means when he says, “I am Love, you are Love.”
Acharya Prashant: What does that mean?
Listener: Presence, Now, consciousness, the essence of ‘I’.
AP: What are all of these?
L: Life, living life. It’s a state of being, and whatsoever comes, understanding that. All forms are happening in love. So, it’s not a matter of love with an individual or a person or an object, It’s about the love for totality of life itself.
What does it mean then, to love the totality of life?
L: It means to lead my life surrendered to the present.
AP: And, how is surrendering to the present related to ‘loving the totality of life’? ‘Surrendering to the present’ and ‘loving the totality of life’ – how are these two related?
L: It becomes a service. A Service where every action becomes a service to the totality.
AP: Are you sure you are clear about how that would actually, behaviorally play out? Serving the totality of life, that actually sounds pleasant, but how would that really play out?
L: It’s an allowing. Or, is there this question you could ask me to point me to look in that direction?
AP: No question. Just an urge for clarity. Because this thing, regarding ‘loving the total’, loving the totality, is quite largely in circulation. I am wondering, what does it really mean?
(Looking at another listener) You too were talking of ‘loving everything’, or ‘loving unconditionally’? What was the word that you used?
L: Yeah. I was using like, “Loving everything.”
AP: ‘Loving everything’.
L: It’s not ‘loving everything’, it’s loving the source from which everything comes from.
AP: So, one loves the source, everything comes from. So, then what is one’s relationship with everything? So, there is the source that everything comes from…
L: I am. Everything is occurring in presence of me being there prior. So, there could be an object, and all that I know of that object is my seeing of it, and my knowing of that seeing. It’s not a separate thing. It’s a all happening within me.
And then there is gratitude and appreciation and that is what I love.
AP: Let’s take a practical life situation. It may happen.
There is a thief in front of you, about to shoot someone, you know to be innocent. And you are standing there, and you too have a gun in your hand. The thief is there, he has a gun, and he can at any point shoot someone, who is innocent to the best of your understanding. And you have a gun in your hand. What, in this situation, does it mean to ‘love everything’? How does, love play out as ‘What I am’ in this situation? “What I am” saying, is a representative of any life situation, where you have to make a choice and where you have to act and where there is urgency.
It’s for everybody. Please…
L: I think if you already shoot someone, like, in present moment if you already shoot someone and if you are still standing and watching and thinking, you are still in the world.
AP: In this situation, your Universe consists of more or less only two objects, only two beings. What are they?
L: The innocent one.
AP: And the thief. The thief and the innocent person. This is your Universe. So, when you say, loving everything – there are only two things. These are the two things. What do you mean by loving everything in this situation? And how would it act out? There is someone, about to shoot someone, and these are the only two things available to you, right now, there is nothing else. What does loving everything mean in this situation?
L: However it plays out, it’s going to play out!
AP: Accept what?
L: Whatever outcome it will be.
AP: Don’t you have any role to play in the outcome? Would you let the thief just shoot the man? That’s the most likely outcome.
Given that, you want to love everything, which probably also means everybody, what would you do in this situation when he is just about to pull the trigger. What does loving everything or everybody mean now?
L: In a situation like this, you would probably want to stop the thief from killing the person. And if you are loving both of them, and preventing the thief from killing somebody that is also out of some compassion, understanding, and you can call it love. And saving that person.
AP: In the next point one second, the thief would pull the trigger and there is no way you can make him understand. There is just no way you can make him understand. You don’t have the time. But you too have a gun with you. Now, how do you display your love towards everybody? And everybody includes the…? Thief as well. How do you display your love? And the thief is hell bent on killing.
The thief is saying, “I have been nursing a grudge against this man since long. Today is the day.”
L: Forgive him.
AP: Will the innocent man forgive you for forgiving the thief and not acting? Will the innocent man forgive you for not saving his life? You are talking about forgiveness, you had the power to save innocent lives. You had the gun with you, but you didn’t save. You said, “Forgive the killer.” Obviously you are not forgiving the diseased. In the next point one seconds, he would be dead. So, there is no question of forgiving him. When you say, “Forgive them”, you mean forgive the murderer. Now, would the killed one, forgive you for not saving his life?
L: It’s about that pulling the trigger will be safe. You said that love is not just about being compassionate sometimes even love kills because in that moment most of us…
AP: The question is, loving everything, what does that mean?
L: It is regardless of the outcome, and not feeling guilty about myself as a person. I know that it’s nothing inherently about me whatever I do, that is really going to be indebted to God. In this situation you are asking me, what outcome is going to spontaneously come in that time?
AP: I am asking you, what is your Dharma at this moment? This moment is right in front of you. What is the right action for you? And how is that right action, to be seen…
L: Honestly, I will pull the trigger at the thief.
AP: And then how do you defend ‘loving everybody’?
L: In this outcome here, it is not about…
AP: You have just shot him in the head. He has every other part covered. Only his head is exposed. It’s possible. Now tell me, how do you display your love towards everybody?
L: My love for him isn’t to do with what he is doing.
AP: But it’s surely got something to do with what you are doing to him, right? You are killing him. Is that an act of love?
AP: Does that agree with your concept of ‘loving everybody’? Does your concept include killing?
L: If I am another person and if I need protection and this makes sense but I am afraid that my experience will affect the outcome of the situation. If I am a thief too, then I would say, “Just do whatever, I don’t care, whatever.”
AP: You are someone who must do what is right and that is independent of your identity.
L: But this right means, right from my experience, or…
AP: The Right. The Truth. Yes?
Alright. Let’s move into it, a little head on now. And this is going to be a little tough on us and our concepts and also on our sentimentality.
There is nothing called ‘love between two human beings’ or ‘love between a human being and any other object’. All human beings are by body, and by mind, and by consciousness merely objects.
Usually, we say that there are five elements. That’s the way the ancients put it. It doesn’t matter today the number is well in excess of hundred. It doesn’t matter what that number is, five or hundred or twenty. The thing is that when we would talk of elements as material entities, then we would talk of only the grossly material. We would say, “Earth, Air, and Water, so on and so forth.” We would say, “Sodium, potassium, oxygen, nitrogen, so on and so forth.” And, what are these things? These are ‘things’. Things that can be easily called as objects, materials. Something needs to be added to the list of objects.
Objects are not merely material. Objects are not merely that which is gross and perceptible to the senses. Kindly extend your list a little.
The senses are also objects. The Mind is also an object and consciousness is also an object. Consciousness is just — like hydrogen and oxygen and water — an object. The senses, the mind, the intellect are also just like the Air, the Earth and the Fire – objects.
Typically, we have been calling, the content of consciousness as objects and we fail to call consciousness itself as an object. We say that what we look at is an object. We do not say that the looking itself is an object and therein lies a gross mistake and that is why mankind has been so confused about everything including love. Everything is an object. Everything that you wear, is an object. Everything that is in your body, is an object. Everything that is in your mind, is an object. And the mind itself too, is an object.
So, that which we call as a human being is in its totality, just an object. Objects cannot love each other. Two human beings cannot love each other. What happens to our love, I ask you, when we go off to sleep? What happens to our love when our mood changes? What happens to our love when the seasons change?
Objects are given to exist only in certain conditions, when those conditions change, the objects change. You take a molecule of water and you change the conditions around it, the molecule would be no more. The molecule can exist only in particular conditions. You take a radioactive element with a very small half-life, and after one year you would find that it is gone. You didn’t even need to do anything. The half-life was say, five days. Every five days, it would keep reducing to half and after one year there would be only a negligible amount of it left. Objects. They have a way of changing, they have a way of disappearing on their own. We are all just objects. And objects cannot relate to other objects except in an objectified way. Objects cannot relate to each other except in an objectified way.
Either, then we agree that love too is an object, or we look closely at our concepts, our definitions. What happens between any two human beings is just a play of circumstances, it’s a play of the elements, it’s a play of the situations – all of which are objects. It hurts us, it humiliates us that our relationships can, never really be love.
No, two human beings can never love each other, and I am saying that with full responsibility and understanding.
Love has to be seen differently. And when you look at it differently, then you will be able to throw brighter and clearer light on what human relationships are.
Man is born in a crowd. But, he has a deep loneliness within. It requires at least two, for a human being to be born. So, man is always born in a society. On one hand, man being born in a society has several others to relate to, yet, none of those relationships are ever able to fill in the hole in the heart.
Man keeps relating in various ways. But that which he wants is hardly ever supplied by the others. We would not be mistaken, if we say that others are fundamentally incapable of satiating your deepest urge.
No human being can give you, what you really want. And to expect it from a person is to wrongly place your hopes. You would be disappointed.
That, which we call as ‘love’ usually, is just a misplaced hope.
The other person can give me that which I really want. The other person cannot give it to you, because the other person is outside. The other person is an object. And that which you really want, is hardly an object. People, since the beginning of time, have been trying out objects after objects, one thing after the other but no object has ever succeeded. No human being has ever succeeded. You cannot love the other person. You can only relate to the other person as a hydrogen molecule relates to an oxygen molecule. There would be a certain chemistry, there would be a certain bonding, there would be a certain transformation, when the two of you come together.
It is also possible that it appears that in this bonding the two of you have lost your individuality, and something new has resulted. Obviously, when hydrogen and oxygen come together, neither hydrogen is left, nor is oxygen left. So, you may be tricked into believing that both hydrogen and oxygen have gone, disappeared. They aren’t gone. They are just hiding. The molecule can split any day, any moment. The conditions will change, the molecule will split, you will find that the oxygen and hydrogen have reappeared. They were never really gone, they were just hiding themselves.
That is our normal human love – as objects meet objects.
Things happen, a lot many things happen. It’s not as if human relationship is devoid of colors. It’s not as if there is nothing interesting out there. There is a lot of activity, a lot of frenzy, a lot of movement. It’s a busy marketplace – people coming close, people offering respect to each other, people hating each other, people claiming that they understand each other. People feeling obliged towards each other or somebody People getting attracted, people feeling repulsed, people attracting, people accepting, people rejecting, people naming somebody as great, people naming somebody as inferior, people taking somebody as teacher or Guru, minds being occupied, minds being emptied – a lot, lot keeps happening between human beings.
Person meeting person and a person being born. Person dying, person diseased, person recovering, a lot keeps coming in, a lot keeps happening between human beings.
What happens then? Nothing.
A lot is happening even here. There is water, water is evaporating, something is cooking in the kitchen, you know what is cooking? Compounds breaking down, the impact of fire, elements combining, molecules splitting – all that is happening. Right? There is so much of chemistry in the kitchen, and there is so much of chemistry in the tents outside the kitchen. Explain to me, please, how are the two chemistries different? Please!
In the kitchen too, there is a lot of spice and noise. And in our tents too, there is a lot of spice and noise. Is there not? Something is always cooking there, and something is always cooking in our tents. There too, the objective is to come to something that excites you, excites your taste buds. In the tents too, the objective is to come to something that excites us.
In the kitchen you have molecules, in the tents you have people. You really want to dispute when I say that people are molecules? And I am asserting, people are molecules, people are just as much of objects as molecules are. And there is nothing that people do, that is not done, or cannot be done by molecules. All you require is a particular combination of molecules in a particular condition. Do you see that?
You require a little bit of heat, a little bit of intimacy, and anything can combine. Even inert gases react, don’t they? All you need is suitable conditions. We are molecules, we are objects. Objects can get attracted, objects can feel repulsed but objects cannot love each other.
Whatever is happening in consciousness is objective. What do you think, a molecule does not have consciousness? How then, does a molecule determine, that the other molecule is suitable one to combine with? How does it determine? Just as you know in your own mind the right person to date and mate. The molecule too knows. Sodium knows, “I have one less, Chlorine has one more. Together, we can cook it just right.” Don’t they know? And then there is a union. Would you call it love?
And stop saying that we have minds, so we love and molecules don’t have minds. I am asserting that molecules very much have minds. Every function of the human mind is objective and there is nothing that human minds do and molecules don’t do. You wait, you analyze, you enter into relationships, you decide, you have a feeling of time, you have a feeling of space – all molecules have all of these things. And if you are mistaken into thinking that this is love, then even molecules are entitled to think that they are falling in love.
Molecules, atoms, polymers – they are doing everything that we do just as a kitchen is doing everything that can happen inside the tents. You have waste emerging from the tents, equally you have waste emerging from? The kitchen. You need to clean the tents, you also need to clean up the kitchens.
Something goes inside the kitchen and it never comes out in the same shape, in same form. Something has changed. Right? Anything that goes inside the kitchen always comes out a bit differently, does it not? Similarly, whenever you go inside any tent, in your life, you will always emerge a little different, something would have changed. Time would have changed. Situations, inferences and contacts would have changed.
So, first of all, as we sit over here, we are just clusters of molecules. And we relate to each other just as objects are conditioned to do. Just as objects are obliged to do. We hardly have any choice. Or let’s say, our choices are predetermined. One set of condition, it is certain what choices we are going to make. Another set of conditions, it is certain what choice we are going to make.
Sodium had a great fondness for Chlorine, as long as only Chlorine was available. As the other Halogens too, joined the queue, and now Chlorine is not really a favorite. Because, other ones are available. It’s all happening, everywhere.
Let’s discount the possibility, that this body of flesh and blood and this mind of thoughts and concepts, can ever love any other body or mind. Yes, we do relate, but that relating is just chemistry. So, forget about ‘loving everybody’, you can’t even love, anybody.
So, forget about ‘loving everybody’ we can’t even love anybody (Chuckles). We started out by talking about ‘loving everybody’, and I am asserting, ‘you can’t love, anybody, anybody.’ You just can’t love anybody. All you have is juices and hormones and molecules and electrons and waves and combinations and combinations.
Where is that thing now – Loving Everybody?
Hah! In the middle of it, we had talked about the hollow in the heart. Had we?
AP: That left behind.
Now that hollow is something that no electron can fill. Bad. In fact, we keep exploring all chemistries, just to fill in that particular hollow. That is why we are so restless in our relationships. Because there is that hole. But that hole, really doesn’t admit any object. Too bad for us. All that we know of, is? Objects. But here, there is something that simply doesn’t admit objects. You want to put any object there, the gates don’t open. Yes?
Most objects keep trying to enter that hole. Must be lucrative, I don’t know. You go to someone, that’s the ultimate deal that he can promise you. I’ll heal your heart. I’ll close the hole. I’ll heal the wound. I’ll heal the wound. In fact, that is the reason why most of us, get related. Because the other one is promising that he would heal the wound.
But then, myth has it, it’s rumored, Nobody knows, whether it is really a fact or not. I too have heard some odd people think about it that there are some objects who do not claim that they will be able to fill the hole. If you approach them, they say, “Kindly don’t have false hopes. I will not be able to give you, what you want. You look upon me, just as a body, you look upon me, just as a mind. No body, mind, object is ever going to satisfy you. So, don’t have hopes from me. I don’t know, I have heard.” Then, they don’t really tell you, what would plug that hole. They don’t really tell you, what would heal you.
But they at least don’t promise a false medicine. They just tell you, “Dear, that which you are hoping from Nitrogen or Chlorine can simply not be provided to you by Nitrogen or Chlorine. It’s impossible. They don’t try to enter your heart because they know that they would fail. They withdraw. They know that they cannot give you what you want from them. They know that they have already suffered enough. You have already been placing your hopes upon one object after the and it’s no fun adding to your series of defeats.
You don’t relent, you don’t agree. You say, “I have tried everybody, and I think, it’s now you who would satiate my desire.” They say, “No, I can’t.” You say, “No, you would. I am sure.” They say, “No, I can’t.” Finally, you end up asking, “Okay tell me, if you can’t then who else can?” And then they have no other option, but to tell you, “Well, nobody can.
When all your hopes are dashed, when you know that love is simply not possible between human beings, that is called Love. Now you are the same for everybody, now you are unconditionally belonging to the Universe. In what way are you same for everybody?
L: You love no one.
AP: You love no one. You don’t place that hope upon anyone. This situation, when all doors have been closed upon you and you are no more looking for any more doors, is called Love.
To know that love is impossible is Love.
Love heals because it rids you of all your false hopes. Love is the biggest healer because it prevents you from getting anymore hurts.
To Love everybody is to know the Fact of human relationships. And to know that it does not matter what the name of the circumstance of the relationship is, every relationship is fundamentally the same, object to object. It is foolhardy to discriminate some relationships as more real and substantial than the others. Yes sometimes, you would be deluded. You would think that some relationships have more substance. You would think that some relationships are more soulful. Some relationships are more heart full. No, they are not.
Yes, some reactions are more spectacular and some reactions produce a lot of foul odor. But that doesn’t mean that the spectacular ones producing a fruity ether like smell have a different quality. Fundamentally, all of them are just same, what? Chemical reactions. One reaction may produce what appears like a divine smell. One reaction, may produce, Sulphur Dioxide. Both of them are still?
L: Chemical reactions.
AP: Reactions, reactions between objects. Have you smelled the incense that burns at holy places? It’s such a beautiful smell. You almost start feeling the touch of holiness, the moment the incense, the agarbatti or the dhoop, reaches your nostrils. Yes, don’t you? But what is that? All holiness, what is all of that? It’s a chemical reaction! Come on! It’s a chemical reaction. When a ray of light hits your eyes, your retina, what else do you think happens there? It’s a chemical reaction, it produces, a certain wave, a certain electrical impulse that reaches your brain.
Now you are in front of a statue of a Krishna or a Buddha, or a Jesus. And you suddenly start feeling divinity stirring in your heart. Would you have felt the same way, had the chemical reaction not taken place, in your eyes? If you had not watched that statue, would you have still felt the same way? And what else is watching, what else is seeing, except a chemical reaction? What else is it? (Chuckles) What else is it?
Given a certain situation, it happens. Change the situation, something else happens. We are slaves to our bodies, we are slaves to our impulses. We are slaves to our tendencies. Ah! It doesn’t even befit to call ourselves slaves. We ARE our body, we ARE our tendencies, we are nothing except our tendencies, so who is there to Lord over us? When you say, “It’s a Master Slave relationship, there must be two.” There aren’t two. There is just one, the tendency, nothing else. Getting it?
To know that there is just the ‘tendency to relate’, is probably, Love.
It’s not easy to know that. Not at all easy to know that. Man keeps expecting. Man keeps expecting that someday, somewhere, he will find that magical object which will satisfy the heart. Man keeps expecting. A complete breakdown of that expectation is Love.
(Looking at a listener) If you can see that the way you are seeing me, is just a chemical reaction, then that is the beginning of seeing.
If you can really hear me, when I say that all that you have heard so far, is just wave and impacts and impulses. If you can hear this, and know your hearing to be just waves and impulses, then you have probably begun to listen.
To know hearing as hearing, is listening. To know Seeing, as seeing, is seeing. If you can know that, then you won’t have any hopes left from what you have ‘heard’ just now. And you will have to forget these words, and if you can forget these words, that is the beginning of remembrance.
Are you not sharp enough? Why don’t you ask me, “What then is this knowing?” If only objects exist, what do I repeatedly mean by ‘Knowing’?
I don’t know. (Chuckles)
I have heard. It’s a rumor that there is something called Knowing. I only have encountered reactions. I do not know what is knowing.
I know hearing, I do not know what is listening. I have only come across hearing.
L: So, when I am pulling the trigger, it has nothing to do with me as a person. That is what I think you mean here too.
AP: Yes, wonderful.
You know what would happen in that situation? What would happen would depend on your condition. Just as any chemical reaction depends on the conditions. If you are afraid, you won’t pull the trigger. If you are hungry for fame, and respect and acknowledgement, probably you would pull the trigger.
If the one being shot at, the innocent one, is a pretty girl, probably you would doubly hurry up in pulling the trigger. If the one being killed is someone you have a personal dislike for, probably you would hesitate in pulling the trigger. If you are not sure of the gun, you would probably, keep it hidden. Who knows, I pull the trigger, it doesn’t fire and the other one may have more bullets than one. One for the victim, the other for the…? Other victim.
That’s how chemicals live. As slaves to situations.
L: So, I can drop off the gun…
AP: Depends on the conditions.
L: Yes, I was thinking that it is my conditioning and if I put that aside, nothing remains.
AP: You put that aside, and nothing remains. You put that aside, and nothing remains.
L: So, you used the word ‘Dharma’, the right action at that point of time. What is that?
AP: To know, that whatever I would be doing at this time, would be just a play of situations. Just as about Love, we said that there is nothing called Love for ‘me’. Similarly, there is nothing called Dharma for ‘me’. Whatever I would do in this situation, ‘whatever’ I would do, would just be chemistry.
Two things are not reacting. Increase the pressure, they would. They are still not reacting, increase the temperature, they would. Still not reacting, bring in a catalyst, a Guru, they would. All that you need, is temperature, pressure, and a catalyst. Every damn reaction is possible. All you need is the right situations. You can be made to fire at anybody, you need just the right situations.
Nothing else is left. That’s what life’s all about. Situations and reactions. Love, or realization, or Dharma, is to KNOW this. Now, whether this ‘knowing’ too is an object, you figure out. Whether it exists at all? That too, is just heresy. Some books say it exists, others say it doesn’t. You figure out. You find out.
There is been only one thing, a little exceptional in all of this – that one object, which refuses to become a bait, that one object which tells you that I will not be able to fulfill your expectation.
I don’t know, what is the kind of relationship we are going to have, with that object. Because every other object, is just a promise. Every other object, lives to its name – O B J E C T. This particular object is a little bit of an outlier. In spite of being an object, it is behaving a little unobjectively. It is telling you that I won’t be able to act like an object. It is also telling you that, no object, not only me, no object, no object whatsoever would ever be able to satisfy you. This object, is a little different. I don’t know.
L: If you are here and now, then no expectations.
AP: What do you mean by here? Here – You mean a geographical location, a point in space?
L: Yeah, Just…
AP: Just what?
L: Just be.
AP: ‘Just be’ what? When you say here, do you mean the banks of the river?
AP: I would like to take that. I would really like and wish, that those words are actually something. But what does it mean, by ‘being actually here’? What does it mean? Everything is where it is. That chair is also here. And that chair is unconditionally here. It’s not even imagining it’s somewhere else. And you can put it anywhere. It is, where ever it is. It is unconditionally and fully where it is. Do you think the chair has a desire to go anywhere else? And do you think the chair is attached to this point now? When the moment comes, the chair will offer no resistance, you can put it anywhere. So, the chair is here. And how does it make it special? And how does it provide it with some kind of divinity?
L: It’s made by God. It’s made by formless.
AP: I thought it is moved by anybody who moves it and picks it. We really didn’t employ God to bring these chairs here. We brought them ourselves. And we brought them…
L: Then what is moving the chemicals?
AP: What’s moving the chemicals, yes? The chemicals are moving the chemicals. You see one chemical rushing towards the other one. What’s moving the other one?
L: What’s giving it the drive!
AP: That drive itself is an object. Remove the object and drive too is gone. If you are talking about the energy that is contained in an atom, the energy is the very existence of the atom. Remove the atom, that energy is no more there. That atom would mean, circulation of certain micro objects within it.
L: What is causing this thing?
AP: Laws, movement. It can be very easily calculated how much energy would be required to split our body into its constituent atoms. Right now, any decent physicist can calculate how much energy is needed so that every single molecule in the body is split into isolation. Nothing else is holding the body together. Chemistry is holding the body together.
L: Who made laws?
AP: Why do laws need to be made? Atoms are talking to each other. If atoms exist, then their interactions, are also existing. If you are asking, who made laws, you may as well then ask, who made atoms? Because when atoms are there, they behave in a certain way. And that way, is just what they are. It’s not as if there are choices.
I am asking you a simple question. That which you call as love, what happens to it when your moods and priorities change? Isn’t it just mental activity? Isn’t it something that ebbs and rises? Isn’t it like the Sun that rises and sets? And the Sun is an object. And if our love too waxes and wanes then our love is an object. And it surely is.
Do you know of a love, that you experience, even during your deep sleep? Do you know of a love that is with you irrespective of the mood you are in? It’s all fickle, right? It’s all dependent on situations. And if it’s dependent on situations, how is it different from molecular behavior?
L: It’s not dependent on situations.
AP: If it is not dependent on the situations, would your love remain with you, if all your memory is wiped out?
AP: Not even your name, not even language.
AP: No knowledge left, would love still remain with you? Seriously?
Who would you love?
You have no memory left of anybody. Who would you love now?
L: Myself. I feel it within myself.
AP: To feel anything you require memory. Can you feel without memory?
Answer this please?
Can you feel without memory? Is any feeling, ever free of objects?
And objects, all, reside in the? Memory
Can you feel, without memory? How would you feel anything, when memory is wiped out?
L: So, I am sitting here and I am experiencing.
AP: All your experiences depend on your memory. Even experiencing cannot happen unless there is somebody inside, to receive the experience.
What if, that inside one is wiped out? Would you still have any experience?
L: Experience? Yes.
AP: Are you sure?
I am talking of the inside one, that you call as consciousness.
When it is out, what do you experience? That is called death, by the way. (Smiles)
Do you really experience it sans consciousness? Consciousness has gone, what do you experience anymore? And consciousness is fickle, it keeps changing. So, all this experience of love, is dependent on the fickle consciousness. Is it not?
L: Then, I am looking at my experience. It sounds that I am already dead.
AP: The one from where I heard the rumors, also told me that when you know that you are dead, then you can silently call yourself alive. But what I don’t know is, what this ‘knowing’ thing is all about. But that’s what he told me, he said, “When you know that you are just dead chemicals, then you come alive.” But first of all, you have to really know that that everything about you, is chemistry. And then you can come alive. I am not sure. He told me. I don’t know.
You have to first know, that you are dead, totally dead. As dead as the chair, as dead as the stuff in the kitchen. As dead as the pebbles on the banks of the river. They too move. And there is something cooking in the kitchen, and there is a lot of, as we said, spice and noise. The same stuff that characterizes our lives. But we don’t like to call the stuff in the cauldron as alive. Would we? Unless the kitchen is hell and people are being boiled alive.
Yes, you do have hell’s kitchen, right?
You aren’t even alive, how are you going to love?
This fellow, sitting on this chair (pointing to himself), would fall asleep after a while. And why would he fall asleep? Because his energy reserves are depleting. Would he really be delivering this brilliant speech, after he falls asleep? Come on, please?
So, all this demagogy, is totally contingent on the quantity of food I have eaten and that is an object. Gone is the food, gone is the energy, gone is the divinity. This man would have collapsed on this chair. And all the brilliant talks on love and this and that, are gone, finished. Like an overweight stone, would I be. You will have to exert yourself to lift me and put me somewhere.
L: Like you said that, this is experience and its dead like chair.
AP: There is sound (Speaker thumps the chair.)The chair experienced something. There is an impact. Even the chair experiences. How do you know that experiencing is called life?
The chair is conditioned to experience. Is it not conditioned to experience? Please tell me. You are also conditioned to experience. Any dead thing can experience. What is the value of experience? You experience love all the time. What is its value?
We can cook the food in a way that will make you more love hungry. Seriously, that can be done. We can put some stuff in the kitchen, and you will become even more starry eyed. That, which you call as cupid, is probably a chemical. Cu, Oh that’s Copper; Cd, may be, Oh! That too is gone. Oh, let’s just say, C U P.
No cupid needs to come and strike your heart with his cute bow and arrow. All you need is some? Chemical. And then you are hopelessly in love. If you like me, that’s love, if you doubt me, Sir that too is love ‘and chemicals’. It’s all chemistry.
But I am really not sure about the one who told me that there are some objects who are hell bent on proving that they are not objects, so when you treat them as objects, they would whisper in your ears, ‘they are not’. Oh no! we are just objects. It is very uncharacteristic of an object to confess that it is an object. Every object claims to be something beyond an object. Does the woman you love ever tell you that she is just flesh and bones? She claims to be something beyond an object. She claims to be your medicine, your treatment, your elixir.
Rare is the object who would simply confess, “I am an object and kindly do not hope anything else from me. Not only am I an object, everybody is an object. So, woman, I am a man and everybody else too, is just a man.” Kindly don’t give us fancy names. He cannot be your angel, he cannot be your friend. I cannot be your teacher. The next one cannot be your hope. You are a woman, and you being a woman, for you everybody is a? Man. You being an object, everybody for you is just an object.
But rare is an object, who would confess that it is merely an object. The man would say, Aha! I am your savior. I am your Mr. Perfect. He won’t say, “You know what, I am just a man. And a man, is flesh and blood. A man, is a lot of molecules. You too are just a lot of molecules.” How can molecules satisfy molecules? Molecules can react with molecules, that is not the same as? Satisfaction.
L: Acharya Ji, yesterday we sang songs of Meerabai. Are these songs coming from the same understanding? They sound a little different.
AP: So, they mislead you into thinking that there is something called Girdhar Gopal, that is not an object. And that is the reason why I chose to speak only on the Three words – “doosro naa koyi.” I chose to only suggest to you that none of the ones you are placing your hopes on, are going to fulfill your wishes.
L: There is a contradiction between this session and the session few hours back. This session is negative and the session few hours back was quite positive.
AP: Contradictions are there, only when there are two. “Doosro naa koi.”
From where did the second one come? But chemicals have memories as well.
L: Acharya Ji, the one which is restless, it is also an object. What is it?
AP: Just objects. The whole game would be simplified, the moment you see that consciousness too is an object. And it’s not as if, this is being said for the first time. There have been scriptures who have added consciousness to the list of elements. They won’t say that there are five elements. They would say “They are six. The five classical ones, and the sixth one, is consciousness.” And once you know that consciousness is an element, a mere dead element. Then everything in consciousness is merely an? Element.
And I am asking you, is your love anything outside of consciousness? The moment your consciousness changes, love changes, right? So, our love is very much mental activity, just consciousness. So, it is just an element. If consciousness is an element and our love is all about consciousness, then our love is also an element. Simple.
L: Then, why there is fear?
AP: Fear too is an element. Because fear too is only inside the consciousness.
L: But Acharya Ji, if everything is an object, is dead. A dead thing doesn’t fear, right? But I do feel fearful. If I am dead thing, why would that dead thing want to save itself?
AP: The dead thing doesn’t fear, because it has lost some of its properties. That which you call the alive thing, was elements plus consciousness? That which you call as the dead thing, is elements without consciousness. So, its properties have changed. The thing that you called as alive, would talk, would smell, would move. Now, the compound has changed. Previously, the compound had, six elements. The sixth one was?
AP: Now the compound has only? After death, the compound has only?
L: Five elements.
AP: Five elements. So, of course, it is not the same compound. So, don’t expect it to behave it the same way. It won’t talk any more, it won’t breathe. Because one of the elements is missing now.
In fact, you know very well, that in Chemistry, if there is a complex compound, consisting of five elements, then if you remove one of the elements, then you have destroyed the total compound. It is no way, even remotely similar to the original compound. That is why the dead man, is in no way even remotely similar to the man you call as alive. But remember that either both are alive, or both are dead, because both are fundamentally just compounds. Fundamentally both are just the same. It is just that, the one that you call as alive, is walking around with an additional element called?
L: So, the dead one might be having their own properties?
AP: Yes of course. The dead ones have their own properties.
L: That is why, I think it is said that till the time one is alive, he will suffer.
AP: All suffering is in the consciousness. And if consciousness is out, then there is no suffering. So, you cannot say that you must burn the body to end suffering. Suffering does not lie in the knee, the suffering lies in consciousness. If you are not conscious, do you ever experience suffering? Forget about not being conscious, if even your mode of consciousness changes, do you still experience suffering? You might be experiencing a headache right now, if you fall asleep, would you still experience the headache?
So, much for just changing the state of consciousness, suffering ceases, or transforms. When consciousness itself is gone, of course, all suffering is gone.
L: Someone has said somewhere, I don’t remember who? “Die before you die.” Do you mind speaking on it?
AP: Yes, of course, of course. To die before you die is to see that you are already dead. It doesn’t mean that you have to actively die, as if you are already alive. You don’t have to do anything else, you just have to see that you are already dead. It’s just dead things walking, because they are in a particular configuration. Put together, this, this, this, this and add a little consciousness, and what you get is a man. And the man starts walking. And calling himself as alive.
L: If we are dead, then how do we see?
AP: All seeing is chemical reaction Sir. Close your eyes, do you still see?
L: Then, what’s the point in seeing then?
AP: There is no point. But then, do chemicals react for a point? They just react. That’s why, there is no point in our living. Because chemicals don’t live for a purpose.
L: But the statement, “Die before you die”, it seems that it’s been said with a particular point.
AP: Yes, then you are again talking about the Knowing part. Oh! I am very sorry, I am confused about that. I don’t know that that exists! I am sure, we are dead chemicals. I am not sure, whether it is possible to ‘know’ that we are dead chemicals. Then you will ask, “How are you sure?” (Chuckles) I am confused. I am confused about my sureness.
We are dead chemicals, of that there is absolute certainty. Whether we can ever realize that we are dead chemicals, of that I am not very sure.
L: So, we might be dead, we might not be dead?
AP: Oh! We are dead. There is no doubt about that. I am saying, the doubt lies in whether we can ever realize that we are dead. We are so hopelessly dead, that realization becomes impossible.
L: So, realization might be also one of the chemicals?
AP: I don’t know. That’s why I am keeping my hands off that. I don’t know whether anything called realization actually exists!
The only proof of realization, is when you see a man, convincingly calling himself an object. The only proof of realization, is when you see a man laughing at the world love. That is the only proof. Till the time you keep on taking love and such things seriously, obviously there is no realization. You are calling chemistry as love. You are calling hormones as love.
L: Those who say that they love, they mostly live like bodies, just bodies.
AP: Aren’t we bodies? What is possible to you without your body? What love would you have, without your body? Come on! Please.
And not only the body, you need a particular state of the body to experience that which you call as love. Did you experience this divine love when you were Five? If Laila had met Majnu, in her eighties and his eighties, how attractive would she have found Majnu. And Majnu is doubling up and coughing and a lot of cough comes from his mouth. That is the only thing he can now secrete from his body. Cough and urine, and stools. And he is walking, barely walking, using a stick. That is the only thing erect, you can see about him. A stick. How attractive would he be to Laila? And not at all attractive if that Laila object is young. That young Laila object would find some equally young Majnu object.
I want to question this. Why are Heer-Ranjha, and Laila-Majnu, and all these people, why are they all…?
L: The same age.
AP: Yes, the same age, at least roughly of the same age.
L: Who are these?
AP: Oh, these are fabled love stories.
L: Like Romeo and Juliet.
AP: Yes, like Romeo and Juliet.
The question is, why is one always a man and the other always a woman?
L: That’s how it is.
AP: That’s how the chemistries are Sir. You need one vacant place and you need one vacant electron. You need a hole and you need something to fill it up with.
So, there is a Romeo object and there is a Juliet object. And then there is a Chemistry. And that we call as the?
When you don’t get anybody to fill your hole with, then you invent a beautiful object called God. I couldn’t get a Romeo, so I will make do with? God. Does this God exist anywhere except in your consciousness. And if he exists, he must exist for you, after you are without consciousness. Show me, where is your God, after you are dead. Show me, where is God for you when you are sleeping. Show me, where is God for you are afraid.
L: Acharya Ji, when you said that all doors have been closed and you stop going to look for doors and I am trying to find some door when the conversation was going on but you kept on closing all the doors. But, still there is a hope for some door.
AP: As long as you get any door, that opens for you, you are still wedded to objects. So, Sushmita object, drop your ‘hope object’. Once Sushmita object, drops the hope object, probably all is okay.
L: But it seems, that you are shutting the doors, literally on the face.
AP: I am just saying that the doors are already shut.
L: But then, what is being okay?
AP: Seeing that there are no doors, there are just walls. And you are banging your head against the walls, assuming them to be doors. That’s what is causing all the suffering. You keep banging your head, it won’t open. You are banging the right thing at the wrong place. (Laughs)
One must learn the etiquette of banging. Must one not?
L: If suffering is just a chemical reaction, why is there a need to remove it.
AP: Just as the molecule has the need to fill, its electron. In the similar way, the mind object has a need to remove the suffering object.
L: How does it do that?
AP: It does what it does. It tries to find various ways.
L: It’s more like an atom trying to remove an electron.
AP: Of course. Chlorine has an excess electron, it keeps searching for an Hydronium ion. Which is always deficient by one. And you have some free radicals. You know of free radicals? They are ever so eager to combine with anybody. They are very destructive. If you have free radical in your system, it will just go and cling to anybody. It’s so desperate. What do you call that? Free love? Because it’s a free radical? (Laughs)
L: Mind hold on to this thing, Love, and now it is trying to hold on to Chemistry. Chemistry is also just a concept.
AP: Yes, Chemistry is also an object, because it’s in the consciousness.
Gone, Gone, everything’s gone. Finished.
L: Sir, does this realization not affect to lose all your interests and actions?
AP: You see your interest object in various men objects and clothes objects, and hope objects and divine objects. It’s just misplaced object.
What do you think is interest, except an object. Remove consciousness, where is interest? Consciousness gone, interests gone.
Mam, when you are lying asleep, does it matter for you whether it is your husband by your side, or a snake? Where is love? The love for the baby by your side, the small kid, exists only here (pointing towards the head). When you are asleep and your consciousness state has changed, even if it’s a snake lying by your side, it doesn’t matter to you. Or does it?
Do you see, all suffering exists only in consciousness? Your baby might be dead by your side, but you won’t suffer till, your mode of consciousness changes to the waking state. Now is there suffering without consciousness? There is that snake by your side, do you suffer? You are asleep and there is a snake by your side, do you suffer? You don’t. You don’t. And, there is a beautiful Shiva statue by your side, do you experience bliss? Do you? Ah!! Shiva too is consciousness!! Too bad for the Shiva object!
L: Sir, in this interaction, Chemistry became more sacred, and then you said, chemistry too is a thing in consciousness.
AP: Of course. No consciousness, no chemistry, not even physics. Ah! Forget biology as well.
L: As you said that there are objects that say that I am the object but there are many who claim that they are not the objects, they are the realized ones.
AP: Ah! There are the sacred objects who claim that they are non-objects. They say, I am not at all an object, I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am something else. That’s exactly the promise that all objects hold for you. It’s not an especially spiritual promise. It’s not as if only the spiritual ones are saying that. Even the attractive ones are saying the same thing.
That enlighten mystic is saying, “I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am something else.” Yes? And that attractive T-shirt is also saying the same thing. “I am not a t-shirt, I am not a fabric, I am not a color, I am not a yarn. I am satisfaction.” There is no difference between the claims been made by the enlightened objects and the t-shirt object. Both are making the same claim, “We are not objects.” We are something else.
L: In that sense, they are one.
AP: They are one. Of course they are one. The enlightened one is saying, I am the soul, the t-shirt is saying, I am satisfaction. They are one. Both of them are cheats and liars. Both of them are denying their real identity. Both of them are denying that they are merely?
AP: Objects. That is why I said, that rare is the object who comes and confesses?
L: I am object.
AP: I am just an object.
L: There is a line here which says, “A greater fear of death fills you whenever you are in love.” I have marked those lines and I wanted to ask you. I am not able to relate this to my life but I am able to relate it to what you are speaking.
AP: You see, what that line is saying. It’s only after death, that you are in love. What does it mean to realize that you are an object? It means you have seen that you are already dead. That is Love. To see that you are already dead, is Love. To see that there is no love, is Love.
AP: Yes. An additional object comes in. Fear.
L: There is a small problem that I wish to express. The session that happened in the afternoon is contradicting the session that is happening right now.
AP: The ‘Anshu object’ has a ‘habit object’ of sticking to the ‘memory object’. There was no session in the afternoon. It is just the ‘memory object’ that your ‘consciousness object’ has a fondness for. Where else is memory? Is there a session in the afternoon, without it being in his?
AP: How many of you can see, the session in the afternoon. Come on? Where is it? Kunal, where is the session in the afternoon? Is it anywhere? Nowhere.
But there is already a reaction that has happened. Consciousness has reacted with memory. And now memory is sticking to consciousness. One of the byproducts is comparison. And whenever there is memory there is going to be? Comparison. It’s an inevitable by-product. You can write the reaction and you will have comparison as a by product.
L: So, when you see that you are dead, is then that you are really alive. What does that mean?
AP: That means that… Dead men do walk.
Only dead men can really walk.
L: Like a headless man can ride the horse.
AP: (Smiles) Clever object.
L: Sir, now there is a bit of easiness, and a bit of fear. So, is there any way to diffuse this reaction?
AP: A reaction happens only, in its particular configured ways. And if a reaction is to happen, it will happen. You cannot prevent it. You cannot bring Sodium and water together and expect a peaceful independent co-existence. Put Sodium and water together and there is bound to be a lot of smoke and fire. And you can’t blame Sodium for it, it’s helpless. You can’t blame water for it, water too is helpless.
(Looking at a person in the audience) – Doubt object. (Smiles)
Doubt object often clings to those with beard objects. Beard objects often cling to those with intellect objects.
Now these molecules are demanding some replenishment. Right? So, let’s go and feed them.
-Excerpts from a ‘Shabd-Yoga’ session. Edited for clarity
Watch the session: Acharya Prashant on Osho: The myth of love
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